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 Post subject: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:01 pm
Posts: 300
Location: Waldorf, Maryland
I am writing this specifically to dawger but also to reaffirm what I always thought was written in stone.

Dawger:

You actions and inactions prior to and during, frame 5 of TSU are appalling, ugly and certainly uncalled for unless by chance, you are the new GOD of the S3 events. Cursing, ranting and badgering by you and one of your subordinates was unprofessional, bad for the community and extremely disrespectful!

Before you returned to the WB scene because of low numbers, getting people to stand up to CO a frame has been tough at times. This often led to late nights on TS with all the CO's discussing a potential plan. At least one of your squad could have made that meeting but chose not to. Your not liking my plan is fine but acting like you did because you didn't like it, was totally wrong. The other CO's that worked with me on the plan and executed it, said it was a good plan - but you went into a public tirade, refused to follow frame CO orders and acted like a 4 year old who didn't get his way.

I feel you owe me a public apology though I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

I will continue to volunteer for frame CO duties but next time YOU do not like my plan, I expect respect and not a tirade!


=weis=
8th FG CO


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:14 am
Posts: 1047
Well said and hope he is man enough to address his comments and actions. We experience the same thing and there is no place for these types of comments.

Numbers are low enough and I for one have considered backing out COing a frame when the 475th is on our side.

Please let straighten this out before the new series starts.


Capt Hawk
CO - The Knights Who Say Ni!


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:08 pm
Posts: 750
Weiser,


The lack of attention and effort you gave was absolutely unforgivable as the CO of the last frame. If you did not have time to give it the attention needed so the rest of the guys who enjoy flying these will A) have orders before Sunday Morning, and B) can read, digest and practice if need be, then you should have passed it off to either another 4th member or just put out "Don't have time to do it, who can take it" message.

If you don't like taking criticism, then don't Frame CO....or at least put effort into it.

THe Buffs gave you a route. The Buffs gave you a rendezvous time, you assigned fields to roll from...that does not make a Frame CO. You had buffs targeting base with no plans to close it...bridges which support it were not part of the "plan", you had heavy 38s with NO TARGETS....yeah one of these 4 maybe.

So as someone who looks forward to S3s, I found it greatly disturbing that there was no real plan for this frame.

Lets address the "meeting posted" on the forum approach...worst possible way to call a meeting...no way to see if anyone has seen it. Emails, PMs, anything...pretty sure anyone of the squad COs has set it up so you get an email if you receive an PM.

But lets talk about Fighter GRoup COing...I don't think I can remember ever being hung out to dry by a Fighter Group over the top of us when we were heavily engaged at low altitude and GCI had vectored you to the fight. Tally and Visual and refusal to commit to the fight reeks of cowardice and in the real military would be a court martial offence. Ordering your FG to NOT engage in support of a group is pure bullshit...if you have a beef with a guy and you allow into your game play...you shouldn't be the guy in charge. So the charges are twofold: Lack of effort as Frame CO and Cowardice in the face of the enemy, ie. ordering your group to NOT engage in support of fellow Fighter Group.

So take this as it is meant--play the game like it is intended to be played or step aside and let someone who is willing take the reins.

The 4th FG claims it can't fly on LW side in S3s due to Real World veterans ...what would those same veterans say when told you refused to engage when fellow countrymen were in trouble right below you? I know all the 4th FG members I flew with would throw the bullshit flag...

As far as a public apology would you like it to say "Sorry you are butt hurt on being called out for lack of effort as Frame CO?"

Would love to live in the bubble you occupy...obliviousness must be a wonder place.

Dobs


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:01 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 9:25 pm
Posts: 661
weiser wrote:
I am writing this specifically to dawger but also to reaffirm what I always thought was written in stone.

Dawger:

You actions and inactions prior to and during, frame 5 of TSU are appalling, ugly and certainly uncalled for unless by chance, you are the new GOD of the S3 events. Cursing, ranting and badgering by you and one of your subordinates was unprofessional, bad for the community and extremely disrespectful!

Before you returned to the WB scene because of low numbers, getting people to stand up to CO a frame has been tough at times. This often led to late nights on TS with all the CO's discussing a potential plan. At least one of your squad could have made that meeting but chose not to. Your not liking my plan is fine but acting like you did because you didn't like it, was totally wrong. The other CO's that worked with me on the plan and executed it, said it was a good plan - but you went into a public tirade, refused to follow frame CO orders and acted like a 4 year old who didn't get his way.

I feel you owe me a public apology though I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

I will continue to volunteer for frame CO duties but next time YOU do not like my plan, I expect respect and not a tirade!


The problem wasn't with your plan and you know it.

The problem was with the fact that on Saturday AFTERNOON there was still no published orders of any sort. The best plan in the world published after anyone has time to prepare to implement it is useless.

If you cannot publish orders in a timely fashion, do not volunteer to act as CO. It is that simple.

A lot of us take S3 seriously. You do not, apparently. You issued orders for a target without ANY research into what was required to close it and no time for anyone else to do it.

You selected a railyard with 4 bridges attached and assigned no one to attack those bridges until I pointed that fact out ON SUNDAY MORNING. I even published a DDS MAP with the applicable bridges CIRCLED in red in an attempt to salvage the mission.

This lack of early planning left the destruction of the last bridge to our sole surviving B-24 (noflyz). I watched on radar as he charged alone and unprotected into the mass of the enemy while the only surviving fighters (7 members of 4FG) flew past him in the opposite direction. He missed one span and died trying to put his bombs on the primary target.

Omega, another member of the 4FG, went after that last span and in a demonstration of just how UNPREPARED the frame CO was HIT THE WRONG BRIDGE. He hit a bridge attached to a different province altogether.

You are the one who should apologize for volunteering for frame CO and not producing orders in a timely fashion and demonstrating total lack of preparation with regard to the orders you did eventually publish.


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 9:25 pm
Posts: 661
Hawk wrote:
Well said and hope he is man enough to address his comments and actions. We experience the same thing and there is no place for these types of comments.

Numbers are low enough and I for one have considered backing out COing a frame when the 475th is on our side.

Please let straighten this out before the new series starts.


Hawk,

I suggest you talk to the Allied bomber guys about Frame 4 before you condemn me for pointing out the fact that Weiser didn't publish orders until Saturday night and then accusing the 475FG of being negligent for not attending a Friday 9PM Teamspeak conference announced at 7:30PM Friday night.

S3 is supposed to be the "Superbowl" of Warbirds and the sole reason many still pay for the game yet you are taking Weiser's side because I have the audacity to point out Weiser's disregard for anyone else.

And I put my money where my mouth is.

Read the frame 4 orders and look at when they are published and the effort put into them. I certainly don't expect everyone to rise to that level but I do expect those that volunteer to CO to at least TRY to publish timely, relevant orders.

And you also infer that you would prefer the 475FG or at least I do not participate in S3. If you run off everyone who is critical in any fashion, you end up with an echo chamber of like minded people, patting each other on the back while not actually doing anything. Congratulating Weiser for producing a plan on Saturday night is a bit much.


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:14 am
Posts: 1047
Dawger,

The problem is not what you say, but how you say it. You did the same thing when you flew on our side and I will never Frame a CO when the 475th flying our side. You might be all knowing but the way you commute sucks.

Not everyone who is the Frame CO has the knowledge and expertise that some have. Still they do there best given what they have. I have seen frames where there is little to no input until Saturday or even Sunday.

I stand behind Weiser because even though his plan might not have been the best, it was his and if you did nothing to support it, you are in the wrong.

Case in point. I frame a serious and place the 352nd as imbedded escorts with the bombers. The only objection was from them was minor statement of maybe not using them on a better task. Still, I watched their video and even though they wanted to go and chase the cons till the shot them down. They stayed with us till be got the job done. In other words they might not have liked my plan, but the did it without blasting me. I have one hell of respect for them because they are a team player and have never heard them flame a CO like you and Dobs have done.

This creates tension and will keep others from participating as a CO. We do our best and try to have fun at it.


Capt Hawk
CO - The Knights Who Say Ni!


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 9:25 pm
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Hawk wrote:
Dawger,

The problem is not what you say, but how you say it. You did the same thing when you flew on our side and I will never Frame a CO when the 475th flying our side. You might be all knowing but the way you commute sucks.

Not everyone who is the Frame CO has the knowledge and expertise that some have. Still they do there best given what they have. I have seen frames where there is little to no input until Saturday or even Sunday.

I stand behind Weiser because even though his plan might not have been the best, it was his and if you did nothing to support it, you are in the wrong.

Case in point. I frame a serious and place the 352nd as imbedded escorts with the bombers. The only objection was from them was minor statement of maybe not using them on a better task. Still, I watched their video and even though they wanted to go and chase the cons till the shot them down. They stayed with us till be got the job done. In other words they might not have liked my plan, but the did it without blasting me. I have one hell of respect for them because they are a team player and have never heard them flame a CO like you and Dobs have done.

This creates tension and will keep others from participating as a CO. We do our best and try to have fun at it.


Read this thread and if you need further reading read the WTF? thread on the Allied board. My issue wasn't with the plan, it was with the total lack of any planning. There was nothing published until Saturday night and it was obvious he didn't do ANY research or put forth ANY effort.

If you find that acceptable then feel free to be pissed off at me but if you review the threads regarding Frame 5 you will find lots of folks wondering where the plan was.


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:00 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Florida
Salute!

I have to go with Hawk. Guess we buff-a-holics tend to see things the same way.

I have known Weiser for well over ten years, and he does not take planning lightly. As in my "public" post, I feel we were screwed by the late frame results and the basic scenario setup. I am explaining, not whining.

As many of the "senior" folks here, I resent personal attacks and such. If the "plan" sucked, then that is what you say and then come up with a better plan.

In defense of Dawg and Dobs, a TS planning session by Thursday is nice, and one year I actually participated in such a sesion when on the road to my summer cabin. Otherwise, I do not like the comments and such by Dawg and Dobs ( as we are naming names), but their outfit does its best to help the basic frame plan, win, lose or draw.

+++++

From this old man's perspective, I think we need less rules and pre-planned movements on the ground.

We need an overall objective for each side and then be given the assets and let us go for it. The invasion scenario we just had was confusing to the Allies and we should have had a basic "capture the flag" deal.

I do not wish to question anyone's honor or whatever, but I have been in this business since 1966 (real)/1996 (virtual) and there are certain "rules" and "limits" that we must all abide by, huh?

Gums sends....


"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:44 am
Posts: 171
Location: Texas
Hawk wrote:
Well said and hope he is man enough to address his comments and actions. We experience the same thing and there is no place for these types of comments.

Numbers are low enough and I for one have considered backing out COing a frame when the 475th is on our side.

Please let straighten this out before the new series starts.


Again,
Thanks to you, Gums and others who stand up and tell it like it is!


Salute,
Gofly
AG-8-Doolittle Raiders
Member, Nomads
WBs 2004


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 Post subject: Re: CO Disrespect
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:01 pm
Posts: 300
Location: Waldorf, Maryland
You know you have a lot of nerve accusing the 4th of not coming for calls for help. We have video proof that you were asked by us if you needed help and we were told no!

And even more nerve trying to tell all of us that have flown S3's for 15 years or more HOW we should be doing them - just shut up!

I am seriously thinking of taking the position of Hawk and just not CO'ing when 475 is on our side - not worth the stupidity that follows from you!

Thanks for those that stand behind me on this - I think everyone knows my dedication to the S3 and we've never had an S3 God other than Jabo we don't need a NEW one now!


=weis=
8th FG CO


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